Rank Your Records: Rise Against's Joe Principe
The bassist plays favorites with the long-running punk band's eight albums.
Hello and welcome to a new edition of Rank Your Records on REPLY ALT. In case you’re new here and have no idea what the hell any of those words mean, REPLY ALT is the only and therefore best email newsletter about music in the entire world, written by me, noted dipshit Dan Ozzi. (You can subscribe for free!) Rank Your Records is a longform interview series in which I force an artist to list their own albums in order of personal preference and let me interview them about it. Today’s interviewee is none other than Joe Principe of the band Rise Against. Rise Against is one of the 11 bands featured in my forthcoming book SELLOUT (a giant history of bands making the jump from indie labels to majors). So, if you dig this interview and want to read an extensive chapter about Rise Against featuring many hours worth of interviews with the members and other punk rock notables, pre-order a copy wherever you buy books. It’s good, I promise. OK, enough self-promotion, let’s dive in…
Rise Against has been together for 22 years, although perhaps it is more appropriate to measure politically charged punk bands by the elected officials they’ve outlasted. By that standard, Rise Against has been a band through five different Presidents. Originally named Transistor Revolt, the Chicago group formed from the ashes of 88 Fingers Louie in 1999, at the end of the Clinton administration. Bassist and founding member Joe Principe was determined to start a band that was outspoken and stood for something meaningful, and he found the key to that identity when he recruited Tim McIlrath, an idealistic singer with a wide-ranching voice and a notebook full of fiery lyrics. Two years later, during Bush’s first term, Rise Against planted their flag in the sand with their debut album, The Unraveling. The band later made the jump to a major label on their third album, 2004’s Siren Song of the Counter Culture, and, at the start of Bush’s second term, they had a freak stroke of good fortune when the album’s acoustic outlier track “Swing Life Away” hit the mainstream and catapulted them to stardom. They’ve reliably released a new record every two to three years since then, through Obama and Trump, and have just put forth their ninth album, Nowhere Generation, their first during the Biden presidency.
But even though Nowhere Generation is just hitting stores now, it had been ready for a year. Originally scheduled for release in the summer of 2020, the band decided to postpone launch plans once they realized they might not be able to perform its songs for quite a long time. “We got done recording everything before the pandemic, then everything started shutting down,” remembers Principe. “I remember this panic came over me and sort of snowballed. It was like, ‘Wow, I don’t know when we can release this record.’ But then it was like, ‘Ah, but don't worry, Covid’s gonna go away in three months.’ And then we realized we can’t do shit until there’s a vaccine, and that could be five years.”
Now, finally, Rise Against is finally ready to unleash Nowhere Generation (safely) upon audiences and have a summer tour lined up with Descendents and The Menzingers. To commemorate the release of Nowhere Generation, Principe sat down to look back at Rise Against’s 20-year career and rank the band’s records, from his least favorite to most favorite. Here’s what he came up with...
8. The Black Market (2014)
Something’s got to be last, but how did Black Market end up at the bottom?
Joe Principe: The mental headspace I was in for that record, I was thinking, “Oh shit, this is our seventh record.” I was trying to figure out what it should sound like, and the music world was changing drastically at that point. Rock music was going by the wayside in mainstream radio. It was like, “What does Rise Against even sound like now?” I had the worst writer’s block on that record. So, on a very personal level, that’s why it’s on the bottom. I felt absent writing that record, mentally.
You guys make a record every two to three years like clockwork. Do you ever say to yourselves, “We’re not feeling it at the moment, maybe we won’t write a record this year.” Or do you push yourselves to make sure you get them out regularly?
We always do a two-year tour cycle. We get off the road after touring on a record and we spend four months writing ideas. Then we meet up in a studio and write as a full band. But with Black Market, we ended up taking a little more time. We felt pressure from the label and management, and everyone was feeling that. We felt unprepared as a band going into that record. Even Bill Stevenson, our producer, was feeling it. He told us to wait three or four more months. But everyone else was like, “No, you’ve got to get it done now!” So it was a little bit rushed and a little bit forced.
And when you listen back now, do you think there was any benefit to not having time to second-guess things? Or do you hear the mistakes you wish you could’ve let marinate a bit more?
From a band member perspective, I hear things that feel not fully fleshed out. It would’ve done us some good to take another month or two to work out the transitions in songs and things like that. As a whole, the record is fine. It came out good, but in my head it’s not what it should have been.
This album seemed to take a meta approach, reflecting on Rise Against’s purpose. Is that right?
Yeah, and there’s a song on the new record called “Talking to Ourselves.” After being a band for 20 years, sometimes we sit back and think: “Is anyone listening to the lyrics? Are people soaking them in?” I think that, with anything anyone does in their life for an extended period, at some point you reassess. Are we still having fun? Is there still a purpose to what we’re doing? That’s not to say we were bummed on the band. You just need to take stock.
Do you think Rise Against’s role has shifted over the years? Obviously you’re not the young punk kids you once were, but you have a much larger platform now. What do you see as your purpose these days?
I always see the purpose of Rise Against as what bands like 7 Seconds did for me. Those youth crew bands made it OK for me to voice my opinion and have a place to fit in. I feel like Rise Against is that on a much broader scale. If you’re 15 years old now, I feel like a band like Rise Against will help you navigate those weird adolescent times and help you realize it’s OK to be vocal and not apathetic.
7. Wolves (2017)
This is one of the rare albums in your catalog not produced by Bill Stevenson. Was that circumstantial or a deliberate choice to try to bring in new blood?
It was deliberate. We’d done that once before on our major label debut, Siren Song, where we used Garth Richardson. So, we thought it was time to try it again. Also, at the time, Bill was super busy with Descendents. So, we met with [producer] Nick Raskulinecz, and he’s such a good dude, a good-hearted person. But as soon as we were doing pre-production, it was like, OK, he doesn’t quite understand where we’re coming from musically or what we’re rooted in. He knows punk, but he wasn’t brought up in that world and I really feel like that makes a difference.
You’ve said that about Garth on Siren Song as well. I know you guys like working with Bill because you speak the same musical language, but do you think it adds anything to the equation when you bring in someone who has a unique perspective on you guys?
Yeah, 100 percent. It wasn’t to say Nick didn’t bring anything to the table. But what Nick made sure we weren’t fucking up were tempos of songs. He came from the idea of: “You guys are a punk rock band. Don’t start slowing things down too much or they’ll start feeling lethargic.” I hate when bands do that. There’s that fine line of a little too slow or a little too fast with bands like us or Bad Religion or even Blink-182. And Nick was super good about that. But there are nuances in our music that we took for granted, where Bill would push us to address them. He calls them handshakes—little musical handshakes between bass, guitar, vocals, and drums. Nick was so focused on vocals only, and the music was almost secondary to him. That’s definitely the reason I view it as a little bit of a negative experience.
But as we’re looking at your entire catalog you’ve built over 20 years, it’s probably good to have a couple of outliers. You don’t want to have nine of the same record.
Yeah, you’re right. And Wolves sticks out among our catalog.
When you try a slightly different thing with your sound, how do your fans react to that?
They’re definitely appreciative of the effort. From a fan’s standpoint, I like it when a band I love dips into a different world. Not a whole record, just a song here and there. I grew up listening to Bad Religion and on their last record, there are some real rock moments, and I like that they went outside that punk rock box. I do think a record like Nowhere Generation maintains the energy of The Sufferer & The Witness, but it’s a progression. That's what I'm looking for with Rise Against records—high energy but not rehashed riffs.
6. The Unraveling (2001)
This was your first album. You once told me that when you were starting Rise Against, you auditioned every singer in Chicago. Obviously Tim was the right choice, but I’m wondering, was there anyone who almost got the gig?
No. [Laughs] Either people could sing but lacked the creativity to come up with their own vocal melodies, or they could scream but couldn’t sing, or their timing was shitty. Also, coming from 88 Fingers Louie, at that time, we were definitely one of the bigger bands in that world of the punk scene. That was the gold standard. I thought we’d never be bigger than 88 Fingers Louie. I didn’t want to start this new band and disappoint the 88 fans. Denis [Buckley], the singer of 88, was really good at coming up with melodies. So I set the bar really high in finding singers.
Sometimes people have mixed feelings about their first record because their sound was still developing. When you look back at The Unraveling, what is your association with it?
I’m super proud of it, but what I can hear is four guys trying to figure each other out and Tim learning to sing in that style of music. It was very different from what he was used to. Coming up with melodies, I think there were some growing pains. That was also Tim’s first time in a professional studio. Anti-Flag and us were sort of tag-teaming in the studio, because they were doing their Fat Wreck Chords debut record at the same time. I remember it being a little daunting on Tim. So I hear that when I listen back. But at the same time, I’m super proud of the foundation we planted.
5. Endgame (2011)
Endgame was another Bill Stevenson record, right?
Yeah. Endgame, I love that record, but it was definitely us experiencing a little bit of growing pains from the success of Appeal to Reason before it. The Sufferer & the Witness and Appeal to Reason are by far our biggest-selling records. They’re almost Platinum, both of them, but because no one buys records anymore, they just stalled just under the cutoff.
You ever think of just buying the rest, however many copies it is?
I make that joke all the time. [Laughs]
You could give them out as Christmas gifts for the next 50 years.
Totally. “Here you go, here’s a Rise Against coaster.”
“Gee, Joe, another Rise Against record. Just like last year.”
[Laughs] For sure.
But what do you think this record adds to the Rise Against catalog?
It’s interesting, because that was the point in Rise Against’s career where we did think, “OK, where do we go? We have these two amazing, solid records. We still have this overall punk feel.” But this record, some of the songs are a little bit outside that punk box. At that point, guitarist Zach [Blair] had been in the band for a full tour cycle. So it was kind of our first record writing from scratch with Zach. It made for an interesting dynamic because Zach is so outgoing and I love his enthusiasm, but it almost threw me off a bit. Because when we were writing our last two records, Chris [Chasse], our guitar player before Zach, he was the polar opposite. Very quiet, and he would give his input when needed, but other than that, he was having a good time and along for the ride. But Zach is our biggest cheerleader.
Zach has also got a big stage presence. His jumping and playing adds a lot to the live show, which I imagine must’ve been difficult for him. You’re coming into this band that has their own way of doing things, so you don’t want to overstep, but then you’re like, “Hey guys, is it cool if I start jumping over Tim’s head on stage?”
For sure, he’s amazing live. His enthusiasm and his cheerleader approach excels on stage. But when you're in a practice space and feeling pressure from everyone to top Appeal to Reason, it’s a bit daunting. I work best alone first, I hash out my ideas and then bring them to the band. Tim’s the same way. But I do remember with Endgame, we were a little underprepared. There were a lot of loose ideas and fine tuning as a full band. Too many cooks sometimes gets a bit difficult.
4. Siren Song of the Counter Culture (2004)
We were talking about this before, and you’ve been pretty open about the band not being the right fit for producer Garth Richardson, but I do think there’s something to be said for the results. This is a fan-favorite. Looking back, do you think there was a benefit to someone pushing you out of your comfort zone?
Yeah, I do, especially being that it was our major label debut. Garth elevated our sound to fit on the major label. There were definitely expectations for everyone around us. They wanted that A-list producer on the record, and I get that. I do hear the step-up in production. But we didn’t have clear heads because we were so nervous we were gonna get dropped from the label or have people try to change us. We still maintained our identity, but it was definitely nerve-wracking. I remember being stressed out for two months straight.
Stressed about how people would receive it?
Exactly. All I kept thinking was, “OK, we’re on the same level as Weezer now.” Not size-wise, but we were gonna be playing radio festivals with bands like Weezer or The Hives. “Are we that good? Do we have any place in that world?” It was a lot of second guessing, doubting what we were doing. When you have those clouds over you, it’s hard to focus on the job at hand, which was writing the record.
Speaking of being on the level of big bands, one of my favorite stories that made it into SELLOUT was when you said that on the album release day, you played for a huge crowd at Warped Tour, and then you realized people were just waiting for Fall Out Boy.
That was maybe the most defeating moment of my life. [Laughs]
Then “Swing Life Away” came out and totally changed the trajectory of that record, but it didn’t come out until almost a year after the album had been released. Tim told me once that in that interim, it felt, like you said, defeating. Not bad, but just like you weren’t growing at all.
Yep.
So, I’m wondering, if we could play an alternate reality game for a second. If “Swing Life Away” had not had that breakout success, what do you think the future of Rise Against would’ve been?
I think we would’ve ended up back on Fat Wreck Chords. It’s funny, before “Swing Life Away” came out, Fat Mike saw the writing on the wall. He called me and said, “I’m pretty sure you’re gonna get dropped. So how about I give you guys a small advance and you can all buy houses and be set and be back on Fat?” I remember thinking “Well, at least we have that option.” But then “Swing Life Away” came out literally a month after Mike called me. [Laughs]
“Swing Life Away” was obviously such a huge entry point for the band, but now, 17 years later, how do you see it as a part of your catalog?
It definitely kicked off the acoustic side of Rise Against. It opened up new doors. Sometimes I’ll be shopping at the grocery store and “Swing Life Away” pops up. It opened the door to the suburban moms and dads. But then it kind of led those people to the aggressive side of Rise Against. One hand washes the other.
Rise Against is unique in that you have your diehard fans who’ve been around for a long time, but then there are also young kids at your shows. Your audience seems regenerative. I’m wondering what you attribute that to.
Being a punk rock dad, I really think it’s kids hearing us from their parents. I see that a lot—moms and dads bringing their kids to our shows. We’re at that point in our career where we’re starting to be generational. I think it’s that. Video games have also played into it. Now, our song “Nowhere Generation” is on a Fortnite playlist on the Battle Royale radio station, which I didn't even realize existed.
Has Rise Against come up in your kids’ lives?
Oh yeah, 100 percent. It comes up if my kids are looking at stuff on YouTube. They’ll search Pokémon or Fortnite or whatever they’re doing, but Rise Against comes up on the sidebars and they go down these rabbit holes of watching interviews with me and Tim or whoever. Or if we’re at Target and they’re playing Rise Against there. They love to brag to their friends, for sure. But they don’t like other punk bands. I tried to get them turned onto the Ramones. They kinda like ‘em but they’re way more into hip-hop or whatever.
3. Revolutions per Minute (2003)
This seems like the favorite record for the OG Rise Against fans. Can you tell me about the headspace of the band at that time?
This was the result of a band that had toured their butts off for two years straight, lived in a van together, and we all lived in the same city. We were rehearsing three, four days a week, no kids, we just had nothing but time. That was when Tim started playing second guitar. That was us realizing that our styles work so fucking well together, and it elevated what we were doing as a band. You had hardcore and elements of Cap’n Jazz or Sidekick Kato, the emo side of it. We just became a real band. I remember Fat Mike said, “Thank god these demos are amazing because the second record lets me know if a band is gonna break up and fall apart quickly, or if they're gonna thrive, and I can tell you guys are gonna thrive.”
Nowadays, you guys have families and homes and everything. I don’t say this to throw your families under the bus, but do you ever pine for this time, where you had this immense freedom?
It’s a little bit of Column A and Column B. I love being home and spending time with my kids and my wife. Where it’s the most difficult is writing a record. You know that, as a creative person, if you start an idea, you have to see it through or it gets lost if you stop. So when we’re writing, I’ll have to leave my house for days at a time and rent a place in Michigan or something, or I have to do it when I know my kids will be out of the house for eight hours. That’s the biggest challenge—getting interrupted in the middle of a creative idea.
My creativity is such that the more time I get from the inception of an idea, the more my enthusiasm drops. So I have to get something out immediately because I know that tomorrow I will have 50 percent of the enthusiasm.
A funny story is that the first song on Nowhere Generation, “The Numbers,” I started writing the intro and chorus, and then I went to bed. I woke up to my basement being flooded, six inches of water. I needed to finish the song, but I needed to clean up the basement. I had those mold remediator guys come and dry out the basement. While they were there, I had to rent a rehearsal space to finish the song, because I knew I was onto something and didn’t want to lose it. The working title to that song was “Flood.” Bill always jokes that the flood gave me the determination to finish the song.
It was Biblical! Like The Lord forcing you to finish the song.
[Laughs] Totally!
2. Appeal to Reason (2008)
As you mentioned, this album has “Savior,” which is your most successful song. Why do you think it took off the way it did?
It’s a song about a relationship. It’s probably the most relatable song we’ve released as a single, next to “Swing Life Away.”
Another thing “Savior” has in common with “Swing Life Away” is that it was the third single off the record.
Yeah, we were an anomaly on a major label because we were able to release more than two singles. I don’t know how our manager convinced Geffen to let us do that, especially if they weren’t performing well. I think Appeal to Reason had “Re-education,” “Audience of One.” “Audience of One” was a song I thought for sure would have blown up. I think KROQ played it for like three weeks and it was dead in the water.
This was your third record to go Gold. You mentioned almost hitting Platinum before. Does that kind of stuff matter to you? Do you care about Gold records?
I don’t, but—and this sounds so funny coming from a guy in his 40s—what I love is to present it to my mom. The fact that she let me drop out of college and chase this ridiculous punk rock dream and was so supportive, when I can present something like a Gold record to her, I live for those moments.
What other moments have you had like that?
Selling out multiple nights at the Aragon Ballroom in Chicago. That was a place she used to go to as a kid for ballroom dancing. Her being there and watching us play blew her mind. And playing Wrigley Field with Fall Out Boy, she was blown away, speechless.
1. The Sufferer & the Witness (2006)
What puts this one at the top in your mind?
It was like a magic record. The songs came together so effortlessly. It was like Rise Against on steroids. We still maintained our punk roots but there was something different about it. It was when I realized we had our sound solidified and took it up two notches. Every song has this energy behind it which drew me to punk in the first place.
Do you think maybe the success of Siren Song before this was validating enough to give you a new confidence?
Yeah, it’s a confident record. Once we realized “Ready to Fall” was gonna do well at radio, we got over the hump. We weren’t the acoustic one-hit wonder. We had a rock song on the radio. We made it.
But had there been any notion in your mind that Siren Song was a fluke? Was there doubt?
Yeah, it’s realistic to have that doubt, but at the same time we were experiencing this reunion with Bill Stevenson at The Blasting Room, and there was just so much excitement in the studio. We were in our little bubble.
Is there any specific thing about this record that makes it your favorite?
It’s one of those records you could put on front to back. To me, there’s not a dud on it. I’m proud we have been able to survive in this mainstream world, but still tour with Alkaline Trio and Bad Religion and survive in that world. It made us become this island in whatever sea we were in, just waving our little Rise Against flag and having confidence.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity.
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